S11 - a diatribe

[thorfinn]

Let's start with some URLs, in vague order of seriousness:

• The Onion - Bush Won't Stop Asking


• The Onion - 9/11 Anniversary Infograph


• Flem Comics


• USA Today - Why Does Everybody Hate Us?


• September Hearts - Afghani Blood


• Los Angeles New Times - Enough Already!


• Afghani People in the Crosshairs


• Washington Post - War Without Evidence


• Washington Post - The Long and the Short of It


• People's Daily - US-British Warplanes Bomb Civil Airport in Northern Iraq


• AZ Central - US Jets Again Attack Iraqi Air Defenses

Now, if you can't be bothered reading all of the above... Let me summarise.

So, 3000 people died in New York on this day last year. US Civilians, for the most part. Due to a well executed attack from a known and declared enemy of the US. Today, there are several thousand "accidentally" dead Afghani civilians, due directly to US military action in Afghanistan. Fucking get over it already. There are much worse tragedies in the world, that go unmarked, uncelebrated, and unremembered, and not a small number are perpetrated as a direct result of US action.

Last week, depending on your source, US and British warplanes bombed the crap out of either a "civilian airport" or an "air defense" installation. So what if it's the latter, you say? Well, it's Iraqi fucking airspace those warplanes are violating there. Last I checked, there's no declared war. "Just 'cos we feel like it" is not a valid reason to go bombing someone else's country.

Get over it. September 11, 2001 was a small minor disaster. The whole world does not have to go into mourning. Fuck off, America.

Comments

Yep

[lirion.livejournal.com]

Yeah people died, and that's a tragedy sure enough. I ahve no problem with people mourning said tragedy. But I don't see why Australia - or inf act the rest of the world - has to come to a standstill today. Do we not have a life outrside of what is happening, or in this case, has happened in America?
America should get off their fucking high horse and accept the fact that they are not invincible rather than retalliating elft right and center because their pride was injured as well as all those people. They didn't expect anyone to have the audacity to attack them and they still don't a year later. They are stiking out at anone on little pretext to prove to the world that they are The Big Bad and none shall touch them again. And what does this do if not reinforce the feelings of those who struck int eh first place?

Fuck, I really wasn't going to get into this. have strictly avoided posting about it, but, what the hell...

Thank fuck

[drwally.livejournal.com]

Ah, the voice of common sense. I'll second that sentiment, Thorfy.

Scene: Leah and I at breakfast. I scan the television guide. 'Hey, Channel 10 and SBS have ordinary broadcasting.'

'Oh thank god.'

All this saccarine sentimentality and commercialized mourning makes me want to fly a plane into a building.

Re: Thank fuck

[madigrrl.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking of watching Neighbours tonight. Just my way of saying "thank you" to Channel
10.

oh, that's right ...

[anothertwilight.livejournal.com]

OK, I don't watch TV, read newspapers or listen to radio, so the fact that a couple of LJ posts were talking terrorism and commenting on S11 had not yet become associated with today's date, in my mind. I even read this post, nodded thoughtfully, moved on, and read another, far more explicitely saying 'today is the one year anniversary ...'.

That said, it still doesn't impact that much. Perhaps it is like watching people forcing emotion that they think is appropriate at funerals, celebrations etc. This just does not seem real, more like an exercise where the result is not catharsis or expression, but rather a careful decision to 'maintain the rage' or similar. I find it incredible that a country that has been aware that it's army has waged war upon civilian targets for the past 30 years can truly feel outraged at the same being done in turn. This is war, they are at war, why the confusion?

I also cannot help feeling a little like someone has taken the genuine loss and grief of the families of those hurt and injured, and thinned it out so that it can be spread over everone else as a kind of anointing before 'that which must be done'. Mind you don't get it in your eyes.

Re: oh, that's right ...

[thorfinn]

This just does not seem real, more like an exercise where the result is not catharsis or expression, but rather a careful decision to 'maintain the rage' or similar.

Uhh... Occam's Razor suggests that it is, indeed, a very carefully waged and highly successful propaganda campaign by G.W. Bush and Co. A vast preponderance of evidence points in that direction, and it's very very hard to ignore.

Re: oh, that's right ...

[bunnikins.livejournal.com]

>I also cannot help feeling a little like someone has taken the genuine loss >and grief of the families of those hurt and injured, and thinned it out so >that it can be spread over everone else as a kind of anointing before 'that >which must be done'. Mind you don't get it in your eyes.

And spent the previous year on a search for the most photogenic bereaved people & families they could find...I don't watch that stuff by choice either, but catching the adbreaks was enough to give me the impression that only beautiful and appealing people lost family and friends, and all those killed were saints. Perhaps they're saving the interviews with plain & less sympathetic victims for a non-ratings period?

Re: oh, that's right ...

[anothertwilight.livejournal.com]

Didn't you get the memo? Plain people deserve to die. Beauty is proof that God (tm) loves you.

[usekh.livejournal.com]

I have some very dear american friends, and some of american descent.

And I cannot support any regime or group that targets civilians and inflicts terrorism and opression on other peoples.

Unfortunetly that too often includes the US. I hope you don't mind me posting a link to this entry Thorfinn? brief but says pretty much all i was going to :)

[thorfinn]

It's not a locked entry. I thus expect it to be available to and possibly seen by the entire world. Go right ahead and link to it.

As for the US being terrorists... exactly. That's why I have no sympathy, and no caring for the "innocent civilians". If you're a US citizen, you're responsible for the actions of your government, and the counter-reactions received. That's what being a Citizen means at its very core. Perhaps it would be "fairer" if US enemies struck more "evenly"... but wars have never been about "fairness".

I have more sympathy for the foreign tourists caught up in the event. That's unfortunate. But that's what happens when you visit countries that people have declared war on. Harsh? Yep.

[nigelw.livejournal.com]

But that's what happens when you visit countries that people have declared war on. Harsh? Yep.

And nobody gets particularly outraged when (for example) an Australian tourist walks down the Gaza strip and gets accidentally shot. Or goes to Sarajevo and gets shot. Or Chechenya. Et cetera. We shrug and say "stupid bugger". Maybe feel a little sad that someone's lost a friend, child, lover. But we don't go and bomb the killer's country.

Satisfy my curiosity here...

[lederhosen.livejournal.com]

If you're a US citizen, you're responsible for the actions of your government, and the counter-reactions received.

By the same token, do you take responsibility for the Australian government's treatment of refugees, and its willingness to be a part of Dubya's war?

(not a flame, I'm genuinely curious.)

[anthologie.livejournal.com]

I don't think the fact that other innocents in other countries die on a daily basis is a reason to 'get over' the loss of 3,000 innocents in the US.

I think it's a reason to be a lot more senstive to the deaths of innocents everywhere.

It makes me miserable, what the American government is doing in foreign lands. Tell me what you would have the American populous (assuming we could get them to agree to something as "radical" as no more senseless death) do to change things? I'm not saying we are helpless in the hands of our government, but considering a guy I never voted for (and most people didn't) managed to swindle his way into office, there are times when I feel pretty helpless.

Fake Tears...

[thorfinn]

Hold a violent and bloody revolution, stick G.W. Bush's head on a pike outside the White House, then hold a constitutional convention and come up with something sane. And I'm not actually kidding about that. The US is ripe for a complete revamp of it's political system (it isn't a democracy, or even a sane representative democracy, to begin with) - and historically, there isn't any way to do that other than bloody revolution.

As for sensitivity... Yeah, I'm sensitive to the deaths of innocents everywhere. What can I actually do about it? Nothing. What I do do is act to prevent bad things from occurring around myself, as best I can, all the time. The events of September 11, 2001 did absolutely nothing to change or promote that.

As I just said over in aus.culture.gothic... If you knew some of the dead, by all means, mourn. The dead should be mourned by those who knew them. If you didn't, then don't cry fake tears. Do something real instead.

Re: Fake Tears...

[mikz.livejournal.com]

I like this comment even better than your original post.

I was there when the Shurb became president. Cool, I thought, America would finally wake up to the fact that their democracy is fucked and riot in the streets in the name of the freedom they reckon they have. So I went into the streets and waited... nothing happened. I was absolutely appalled.

But I'm also appalled that Australians aren't rioting in the streets because of the way our arrogant dweeb of a prime minister is roping us into this bullshit. I lost a lot of faith in Australians after they voted that cunt's party back in—unfortunately, we can't use the "we're not really a democracy" excuse because our elections are preferential and at least somewhat proportional. While I don't think any terrorist group would be stupid to try anything today, I'm feeling a lot safer here in Europe than I would be if I was still in the US, and thanks to Little Johnny I'll Show What A Great Leader I Am By Sucking George Bush's Cock Howard, I think I'm safer here than at home as well.

Hugely missing the point

[erudito.livejournal.com]

So many people comment about international issues as if the key question is what we think of the US and Americans. We have to get our mind around that there are other central issues, one's often much more important.

The US is stuck. If there are no consequences to Sept 11, then there will be more of them. If it acts against those who killed American (and other) civilians, then innocents are going to get hurt. A lot more Japanese died in the Pacific War than Americans were killed at Pearl Harbour. That doesn't means the Americans were required to do nothing about Pearl Harbour. And at least Pearl Harbour was a military target. (I would also take claims of *thousands* of Afghan civilian casualties from US assistance to the Northern Alliance with a large grain of salt.)

It is a network like Al-Qaeda which is *most* likely to use weapons of mass destruction, since, unlike states, they have no territorial entity which is hostage to reprisals. And these guys hate us. They hate all of us, not just Americans. They hate all the secular Western societies. They hate us for being secular, for being successful, for practising various 'abominations' (e.g. increasing normalisation of gays, feminism etc). America is the first target because it is the bigger target, but that is all.

As Christopher Hitchens has pointed out, the casualties of Sept 11 were casualties in an Islamic civil war. (see http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/04/1031115884039.html) And we really don't want the Islamists to win that civil war.

The attacks of Sept 11 were not merely an attack on the US, they were an attack on ordinary life in the West by people who hate that life. And we shouldn't imply in any way that killing Americans means we ignore what people behind such acts stand for.

Re: Hugely missing the point

[thorfinn]

Uhh... what, exactly, does Iraq have to do with Al-Qaeda? Despite desperate attempts to link the two by the US, no evidence has yet been raised. Not even mildly credible circumstantial evidence.

By all means, fight the damn terrorists. But be bloody fucking sure that the people you're attacking are actually terrorists, not a goddamn wedding party.

And despite loud declamations from the US, I really find it hard to believe that Iraq is capable of fielding WoMD anywhere except very locally. There is no evidence to suggest that they have the capability, or even the likelihood of developing the capability.

By all means, send in the UN inspectors, backing that with force if necessary to persuade Saddam to let them in... but don't just go bombing airports at random! That's not an acceptable act. That's the act of a terrorist State. Excuse me if I have no sympathy for terror being returned on terrorist states.

Re: Hugely missing the point

[tyggerjai.livejournal.com]

>And we really don't want the Islamists to win that civil war.
Because then the whole South East Asian Co-Prosperity sphere might fall to Communism!
Oh, wait, wrong decade of "We must stop them NOW or Western Civilisation(tm) will fall." rhetoric.
I got confused by the "They hate us all."

And you also seem to have missed the point.
No-one here is suggesting that the war on Al-Qaeda is wrong.
The war on _Terrorists_ ? No problem.
It's the gradual expansion of that to "War on sovereign nations that *might* approve of terrorism that we don't like" that's the problem. It's the "Axis of Evil". It's the
"No nation shall have weapons of mass destruction. Except us. And our buddies. ".

It's the lack of clear and stated limits, both to the war and the retribution.
It's also, to a lesser extent, the willingness of the U.S. to kill civilians in an undeclared war (they didn't, actually, declare war on Afghanistan, did they?) in retribution for ... uh .. killing civilians in a declared war.

The U.S. needs to defeat Al-Qaeda. Sure. BEcause Al-Qaeda declared war on the U.S No problems.
But, as Thorfy has asked, where does Iraq fit?
Where do afghani civilians fit?
How much are you prepared to condone simply because the U.S. says "Oh. Uh, terrorists. Probably.".

We're not even asking for peace. We're asking for proof - or even evidence - that the next nation to be bombed is in fact a legitimate target of the "War on Terror."
Because it seems to us that if you don't agitate for that proof, then *anyone* can be a target of the War on Terror, in the name of U.S. security.

[mmmetta.livejournal.com]

i'm noticing a disturbing trend, actually.

even in articles that openly point out that america is disliked for x, y or z, and has done r, s and t... are saying things like the world is "afraid of the power America has", or that the things the yanks do are just what others "think they have done"... it seems like a carefully calculated attempt to come to grips with overwhelming dislike from the rest of the world -- and then make it all ok in the yank mind by describing it as "jealousy", or "delusion".

rather than actually admitting that there is merit in the multitude of reasons for disliking the american government.

[rosefox]

I would just like to say here that reading this makes me more and more proud to be an American citizen who strongly dislikes the American government. (And yes, I'm doing what I can to fix or excise the bits I dislike. That's not just a responsibility, it's a privilege.) I'm all too familiar with the people who claim that it's all about jealousy or delusion. It's an honor not to be one of them.

[damned-colonial.livejournal.com]

I found this last year, when talking to a bunch of people on IRC a bit after 11th September. There were a few USians involved in the conversations, me (an Australian living in Canada), a couple of other Australians, a couple of Canadians, one person from India, and a bunch of assorted Europeans.

Someone (non-USian) said something like "Well, the US don't exactly make themselves popular with the world. It's not all that surprising that people don't like them." The USians said "You're wrong, the world loves us." The non-USians said "Uh, I assure you that is not the case." This went round and round for quite a while, with the USians simply refusing to believe that the whole world doesn't love, admire and respect them.

I can hardly conceive of what kind of propaganda it must take to convince millions of people that they are so lily-white-perfect that anyone who kills a bunch of their people must necessarily be "insane" rather than, say, pissed off with the US's imperialist bullshit. There seemed to be a total failure to see cause and effect. It was bizarre.

K.

Hey, don't blame all of us

[whipartist.livejournal.com]

You should read some of Ted Rall's editorials-- you can find them on Yahoo.



We got Shrub as president because of family political bullshit, not because he was actually elected. You have no clue how much it sucks to have this clown as your head of state.

However, it's definitely worthwhile trying to separate the American people from the gummint-- many of us are actually quite embarrassed at our forcing this turdlet off on the rest of the world, and we don't support his agenda or his policies.

I think that the September 11 attacks rated pretty damned high on the suckitude scale, for a variety of reasons. I hate to think about how many peoples' lives were devastated on that day. How many children will never know their parents? How many husbands, wives, friends, lovers, and neighbors will never come home?

At the same time, I hate the way that Shrub & Co. have done with it-- the "war on terrorism" is a bunch of bullshit. Yes, trying to take out Al Qaeda was probably justified, if not actually possible. Trouncing an already devastated Afghanistan? No, I don't think so. As for Iraq, I can't BELIEVE how far Shrub is willing to go in order to bend an American tragedy to fit his personal agenda. I'm appalled, and I firmly believe that there will be huge political fallout from it in a few years when lots of now-hidden ugliness comes to light.

And yes, I also hate the media field day. On the other hand, some people find it valuable, and if they really want prepackaged sentimentality with just the right music to accompany it, more power to them. If it helps them feel better, who am I to say it's wrong?

I hated it last year when all of the SUVs suddenly sprouted American flags, when "In God we trust" billboards showed up everywhere, and patriotism suddenly became fashionable and commercial. That's just not what it's supposed to be about.


On the other hand, I still shed a tear every time I see pictures of the New York skyline-- I love that city, and it just looks broken without the towers. I'm incredibly moved by the stories of people who were there and how they pulled together to help each other. I had to turn off the radio last weekend because I just couldn't take it anymore-- every time I heard somebody talk about the loved one they lost, I felt like I'd been punched in the gut.

I wish I could do something to get Shrub to stop his bullshit, but I can't. I just have to suffer through it until he self-destructs.

But I do have a fantasy. I want to wake up one day to find that a single photo is plastered across the front page of every newspaper in America-- it's a picture of Dick Cheney sodomizing John Ashcroft, while Donald Rumsfeld watches and jerks himself off. Not only would I find this hilarious beyond belief, but it would be the complete and utter downfall of the Shrub administration.

Re: Hey, don't blame all of us

[thorfinn]

*nodnod* Don't worry, I'm not blaming all of you. In fact, the vast majority of USAnians I know are jest fine, sane, happy, dandy people, who think that the situation sucks, just as much as I do.

The problem is - they aren't the majority of USAnians. And even if they were, there is still something deeply sick in the emergence from individual USAnian behaviour and the behaviour of the State entity known as the USA.
It's not individual USAnians I have a problem with - it's the behaviour of their Nation State.

As for not knowing how much it sucks to be under the Shrub... Well, no, I don't quite - I'm not there - but Little Johnny Howard (our current Prime Minister) is bloody close. He won the last election through whipping up anti-refugee fervour by using faked photographs. Has he been kicked out of office for doing so? No. Why? The Attorney General is in his pocket, and so it's the Governor General. I really wish Queen Elizabeth II would step in and dismiss him, but she won't.

As for your fantasy? Love it. *grin*

...

[miss-rynn.livejournal.com]

If you're a US citizen, you're responsible for the actions of your government, and the counter-reactions received.

Ummm, I know I'm being just a tad off topic here, but, well...

I'm an American citizen. Says it right there on my passport, my social secutiry card and my birth certificate. And, well, while I'm all for freedom of speach and all, I'd just like to point out that I don't exactly feel responcible for the actions of the US government, nor the resulting counter-actions. What with that whole not having lived there in 20 years and all. While I amy infact be being a pedant, I just feel that as in anything, there severe problems will start to occur if you make such broad sweeping generalizations.

Being a Citizen

[thorfinn]

If you don't feel responsible for what the US does, why are you still a US citizen? Sorry, but citizenship is not merely a little set of privileges, and no responsibilities.

Citizens of a State do bear responsibility for the actions of that State. That's the whole point of being a Citizen. If you don't feel any responsibility for the US, and you haven't lived there for 20 years, then, by all means, renounce your US citizenship, and claim citizenship in the country you live in.

Citizenship grants you certain privileges, and with those privileges come certain responsibilities, whether you want them or not.

[ex-futch238.livejournal.com]

This is the best discussion of US policy I've seen on LJ. I'm adding some of you to my friends list in the hopes of seeing more of the same.

I was born and raised in the US and agree with most things said here. The blood is on my hands and I can not wash it away. I have tried. I always vote. I have worked for some progressive politicians and seen how elections here are distorted by intimidation and illegal activities.

Any of you who happen across my journal be forewarned it is a combination of serious reflections as well as some humor/nonsense. Laughter is the only thing that keeps me sane.

I would love to immigrate to another country. However it is extremely difficult. Getting permission is very hard. Supporting myself once I got there would be equally challenging.